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 Post subject: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:52 am 
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I'll probably regret this, but this topic is for discussing Crap Wars's balance, lambasting it, roasting it, and eating it.

discussion on 2.4: first major point of contention is Grit, and indirects' place in Crap Wars overall

Grit (kiwi) vs. Max (DP)
This is the second of two games on this map, same setup. The first time Grit (DP) massed artillery but Javier (kiwi) matched him with anti-air and recons with a bomber from the funds difference. Pictured game had more mix up with Grit units but Max overpowered his mechs and tanks easily. While Max's tanks and anti-airs won out, it was his air units and Grit's inability to counter them that really did it, I think. Zeppelins still suck.

Sophie (DP) vs. Grit (kiwi)
Grit is pretty lol on this map. kiwi had a mixed game and actually held both center cities briefly thanks to the FTA counter, but Grit's weak directs often dealt no counter damage to Sophie's when terrain came in. Once again, Grit's directs also couldn't take down Sophie's stealths or bomber efficiently enough, and after the silos went off Grit was finished. It might have helped to use the FTA infantry on the comm tower instead, or not.

Crap Wars's "CHANGE" favors directs, obviously, but the alternative is pretty much inf/arty spam all over again, and without DoR's walking CO powers it's difficult for non-firepower COs to cope with it (even then, DoR's top COs all boost those units). Consequently, however, firepower COs receive a hefty boost. But, rather than nerf all the firepower COs, we'd rather boost the ones that are lacking, and apparently the Belle range is too unorthodox, so for something more conventional:

3/6 bar
120/100 indirects, 100/100 everything else
130/110 +1 range indirects, 110/110
190/110 indirects, 110/110

115 artillery are just barely able to one-shot infantry on forests, for sure on weaker terrain or with lower health; 120 will always nail them assuming enemy CO powers aren't in use. kiwi wanted to make all his units bland and return the +1 range, with COPs boosting firepower and range further or something, but I don't think it's an issue of range as it is being able to trade hits effectively. As any COs worth using have some attack bonus on a common unit, and with Crap Wars making all directs more common, Grit can't have a direct unit penalty and expect to keep up. Indirects are still useful for cost-effectively countering larger tanks and/or area control, so as boring as it seems I think it's best if Grit should do it better than anyone else while having merely average units elsewhere.

Sami may or may not get the same treatment. Her super was nerfed and its balance as it is is questionable, but her x1.5 captures are very handy as even Max recons can't stop them without powers or another unit. Additionally, 120 offense mechs can revenge kill recons easily, but because they're now the same price you're not gaining ground. As neither I or kiwi are good Sami players, we'll have to leave her alone and hope for the best or bring in an expert willing to try "CHANGE" somehow.

Likewise, Max may need a nerf since he handles all directs as opposed to just ground or whatever, but oddly enough Andy, Sophie, Sasha, and even Javier can put up with it, maybe because his movement boosts were removed. Haven't tried other COs though, and I suspect Max is at a slight advantage in higher-level play. Of course, Crap Wars doesn't have higher-level play.

Also, Javier, and also... Jake... I guess, are pretty fun now that they have reliable firepower boosts. Although Javier's decreased indirect defense only reduces damage by 1 or 2 points depending on the matchup, the added attack on his super gives him a lot more leverage, and he can thus be used on more maps. kiwi didn't mention it in the update but Jake gets resupply on both his powers so he isn't completely overtaken by Javier, more like mostly overtaken. We gave Jake 130 and 160 attack powers since a lot of COs use those numbers, so he'll be a good measuring stick, not the standard, just, you know, something to measure other CO changes. We're not really sure what standard we're going for, actually >_>

You saw what happened to Koal. I honestly see no reason for him to be here since Adder came first. We could boost his attack to 120, but there seems to be a bug where the boost applies if the unit starts or ends the turn on a road or bridge, and as I am a lame movement CO player we'll just leave him alone for now.

Don't know if Sasha is okay or too strong yet. It doesn't help that Market Crash depletes based on proportion, or I think it does. Hard to tell with stars. So, yes, I will applaud DoR's bars making it much easier to gauge powers. We're not likely to increase her income modifier because everything is cheaper, and for the same reason Colin will continue to suck under all the nerfs the old balance team heaped on him. I recall a CO that had 40% refund for 2 stars, but said CO is no longer in so he must have been axed; 60% may or may not be suitable at 5 stars.

I'd also like to bring up the fact that 1500 infantry pretty much cripples Kanbei on 3 starting-property maps, but otherwise he's still a beast despite his nerfs and the new unit prices. I have no ideas on how to fix this as far as stats go beyond making his infantry bland and exempt from the price mod, but Von Bolt already has something like this. Speaking of, Von Bolt is probably stronger due to less infantry prevelance, but we haven't tried him yet.

And lastly... I'd just like to say that it is very annoying to bring an md tank down to 2 HP only to have Hyper Upgrade bring it back around for another go.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:15 pm 
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yes let us go with 30% refunds or something that does not completely steamroll my ass

and you wanted 100% for penny what were you thinking


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Cheap units ruled the day then, now everything's cheap.
Also, it was 50% for 2 days.
Code:
base          30%          40%

1500          450          600
3000          900          1200
6000          1800         2400
8000          2400         3200
10000         3000         4000
12000         3600         4800
14000         4200         5600
Pick the one you feel like dealing with.
5 or 6 stars, respectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:48 am 
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I don't wanna deal with either one
seriously

30% 6 stars
defensive by nature so you can deploy it at the end of your turn
can't think of any other CO you'd want to do that with so it's an advantage.
oh wait Eagle

GENTLEMEN
I am proposing the following for Sami
actually I'm just gonna do it

3/6
120/100 inf x1.5 capture mod
160/110 inf +1 move
160/110 inf x2 capture mod

ACTUALLY now that Eagle's been mentioned

I am thinking of reverting him to AW2 stats or thereabouts
Crap Wars air units are lol support except stealths which are hax and bombers which are not lol and are pretty sexy
so yes stealth price bump NEXT EPISOOODE??? or the one after next

But what would he do if opponent is Sasha?
can't just increase MC cost because it works on proportion anyway
can't decrease LS cost because then he wins versus anyone else
can make LS AW1 version to shave off a star, maybe nerf it more for 7
ugh must make Eagle COP somewhat relevant to land somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:42 am 
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I got it
Eagle shall become FAST ACTION TACTICAL

3/7
120/100 air -2 daily fuel 90/100 sea
130/110 air +1 move, +1 move inf, recons, apcs, tanks, artillery, anti-air
reanimate non-inf, 70/70 air, 50/70 everything else

Since I'm writing out Hachi eventually I thought Colin could use the cost cut deal
to make him less map dependent, so

3/5
90/100 90% costs
100/110 80% costs
100/110 power of money (funds divided by 400 = atk bonus)

of course the way power of money works favors high fund maps, but then those are insane with CHANGE anyway so yeah
In case you were wondering in-game PoM is divided by 300


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:53 pm 
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100/130/160 universal firepower, that's our standard
if the CO's around there it's good, better too good, can't keep up too weak
I dare say Jake's badass now that he's not Lash/Grit/Jess hybrid and he can use stealths very well.

Oh yeah but don't build stealths on that map, too small, at least when you have funds disadvantage
also stealths show up during fog/mist under the spyplane vision, kinda cool


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:55 am 
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On further consideration and consternation, we decided to wait on hiking stealth prices. They're basically the new battle copter minus anti-air and infantry chipping weakness; the most cost-effective means of dealing with them is a stealth of your own unless air play on the map warrants fighters i.e. not the map in the above post.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:48 pm 
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discussion on 2.5: Penny

Will (DP) vs. Penny (kiwi)
Penny is a very annoying CO to deal with. At the same time, I want to see if 3 star 1 mass damage can work if the day to day is sufficiently handicapped. If you don't want to read a wall of text then the idea is this: as or against Penny you're better off playing defensively and keeping your units covered.

Awe of She is a huge high income map and mass damage should be magnified here because it also encourages air and naval play, especially now that you can actually use naval units often, not to mention powers charge faster with bigger units falling down. It was rough in that top corner and eventually I had to give it up but 90% offense everywhere is a pretty big weakness. It basically means that whenever Penny's opponent uses a CO Power (and isn't "THE BEAST") they effectively get 120% defense, and when you add terrain bonuses Penny has a lot of trouble breaking through defenses. I can only imagine the new load of defense COs will give Penny more trouble.

I wish I'd gotten a screenshot closer toward the end but you might see where it's going. 90% attack also hurts Penny's naval game a lot even though there's 1 MD every few turns.

So right now Penny isn't the nightmare I'd expect her to be although she's no slouch either. The only nightmare scenario I can think of is if I'm Penny and my opponent is Caulder. I'd rather there wasn't an absolute CO counter like that but it's just the way the cards fall. I'd also rather not give Penny something like a 6 star super on the grounds that a double power is possible then, and I don't think anyone wants a CO with flat 2 MD for 5 stars or 3 MD at 7, but maybe a firepower buff on the super would even the odds a little. Right now it's 120% and that's a little, uh, little.

Honestly though, I don't think Caulder will be immensely popular once the novelty wears off. We haven't tested him much but any of the times Caulder won was due to better prediction and unit handling than his HP regeneration pulling him from the brink or forming an impenetrable wall; while it helps, it doesn't give him a tremendous advantage like, say, 80% costs or +1 range day to days would, or even raw stats like Max or Kanbei. It'd be better if we were better players and not just at the same skill level, but I digress.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:14 am 
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so yeah FAST ACTION TACTICAL needs a buff
70/70 50/70 is the lowest LS has ever been
atk has been lower but def is usually 90 except in AW1 which is 80

80/90 60/90 7 stars?
65/90 50/90 5 stars old CW

Drake 120/100 instead of 110/100

Epoch
120/120 hide HP 1 star is like
what

so 110/110 hide HP
or 115/115

Peter
DOOM
6 star SCOP

Mary
uh I got nothing


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:16 am 
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Sasha (DP) vs. Penny (kiwi)
Sasha got demolished. I find 25% refunds a little lacking for 5 stars and if she can't use Market Crash because the opposing CO is too fast, well, that's about all she can do, but maybe it needs more testing. Cobble Keys is the exact opposite of Awe of She. It's a tiny map with so many properties and units so every one counts. I suppose I should've followed my own advice and played defensively but with 4 recons and impending 2000 funds disadvantage I couldn't really do that, except Sasha isn't made for going on the offensive. 1 MD is surprisingly potent this map, maybe because I didn't get to build around it because it only takes about 2 turns to reach the opposing base.

Will (DP) vs. Penny (kiwi)
Will fared better than Sasha but not much. I'll have to try Brenner next time and find a medium-set map for the next round. I'm not looking to use small maps like this often, but we might try one that isn't a hyper-aggressive HQ rush.

later:
Forsythe (DP) vs. Penny (kiwi)
Finally pulled a win with Forsythe after, like, 32 turns. The ones above were around 15. Not as clean a win as the Will game but I don't care. kiwi had rockets sitting on the middle PG cities for the longest time...

The map and Penny were a bad match for Sasha so I wouldn't even consider it, kiwi didn't even get out a megatank. Will and Forsythe, on the other hand, were a lot closer, and the latter won eventually. I'm betting Penny just clicks with the map, but anyway it was power spam all over. I found Will's power useful enough on a large map but here it wasn't always available when I wanted it. Okay, so you'll always want a power ready but with Forsythe that'll happen more often. Coupled with Penny's 90% attack, Forsythe affords better control. I also didn't come across any match-ups that differed between 130% and 120% attack on an all-ground map with this size and layout, as in a unit was left standing or not, so that helped.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:48 pm 
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yeah what the hell I had megatanks, rockets, the works
obviously I lost because Penny does not have a mustache

I'm thinking of screwing up fuel next
30, 60, 90
or maybe 40, 70, 90

low fuel class: infs, mechs, spyplanes, pipes, megatanks
mid fuel: treads, wheels, copters, hovers, stealths, landers, bboats, naval triangle
high fuel: fighters, bombers, carriers, battleships

I don't really feel like going through all the unit files again though so odds are low.
it's just does anyone that isn't DP gonna have an aneurysm about this?


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:48 am 
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Hawke (DP) vs. Caulder (kiwi), turn 13
Caulder doesn't look so hot right now. Jigsaw Puzzle is pretty big but due to its layout, number of bases, and number of properties it encourages infantry spam. At the very least, things go faster now. Each player tops at 19 properties, so while you could spam neo and megatanks, you won't be able to build much from your other bases, and if you're caught on the defensive unprepared they won't be a lot of help anyway since the other player can easily shuttle one of their own to the frontlines. All that said, we pretty much had nearly the same strategy, but Hawke's power provided a useful boost early on that Caulder couldn't beat back. I guess I could've fielded Grit or Isabella for better results on my end since their powers would be even faster. Will have to look into that.

Sooo how do we go about making Caulder less novel and more useful? Increasing the regeneration would be too useful; I'm thinking his power is simply too overpriced. I suppose 7 or 8 would do for 130/130. Forsythe gets the same boost at 5 stars but is bland and has a nifty power you might want to use instead. Olaf gets 2 MD 130/110 (120/100 turn after) at 7 and is, for the most part, also bland. Supposedly 160/110 6 stars is what we'd like to balance supers to, so I'm leaning towards 7.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:12 am 
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kiwi hasn't said anything about re-adding cut COs, actually he probably hasn't read about kosheh's request yet. I do know their code and graphics are still there so it'd only be a matter of putting them back on the COList or whatever. Unless kiwi is harboring some serious dislike I don't know about, I can't think of any technical reason to not do it unless their code doesn't work for some reason. I presume we're ignoring other reasons.

So I guess these are some tentative changes to them that I would suggest:

Nana
4/6
100/100, explosive indirects: 1 damage to adjacent tiles if indirects deal 1 or more damage
110/110, area of effect for explosion +1, applies to directs
130/110, 2 damage to nearest, most expensive target within 3 spaces following indirect attack

Artemis
3/6
100/100
130/110, causes rain
130/110, causes rain, enemy units lose 0.4 HP per space moved

Robo-Andy
3/6
110/100, 90/100 when 4 stars or more are charged
120/110, cannot use if 4 stars or more are charged
100/110, +1 HP after attack or counterattack, 2 damage enemy unit that destroys allied unit

Aira
3/6
100/100
110/110, x5 enemy fuel use, disable enemy refuel
110/110, 2 damage enemy units less than 8000 in price

Edge
3/7
120/100 vs units that cost more than the attacker, 100/100
160/110 vs units that cost more than the attacker, 110/110
160/110 and first strike counters vs units that cost more than the attacker, 80% costs, 110/110

Joey
:\
I'm looking at the code and I still don't know what he does other than cheaper transports.
Hopefully it works and doesn't do something weird.

Sanjuro
:\

Carrie
5/9
130/100 vs targets of same movement type, 100/100
110/110, reanimate half of allied units starting from most expensive
110/110, select half of the enemy army to be paralyzed

Zandra
3/7
100/100
110/120, causes sandstorm, allied units have higher terrain bonus if there's a difference in battle
110/130, causes sandstorm, +30 defense if enemy unit must move to attack

Alexis
:\

Mina
3/6
100/100
110/120, -20 to enemy luck range
110/130, 20% of enemy's units take 3 damage starting from most expensive

Julia
:\

Xavier
:\

Talyx
:\

Also:
Melanthe
4 star power, +2 HP

Amy
9 star super

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Edge 130 atk
Carrie 120 atk
that's it for me

oh yeah and Caulder 2 HP

I'm probably not gonna add a CO we can't figure out just by looking at their code
I'm also probably not gonna get around to checking this out for a few days
work school lazy etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:07 pm 
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As I recall, most of the COs taken out of the game were primarily balance issues. They were voted out.
That's it - the only two unprogrammed COs if I recall were Cassidy and Levenworth X [who predates Caulder ohoho]



also tbh if we just added nana that would make me a happy panda

ok i lied, mina too

and artemis

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:02 pm 
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I don't know about Carrie. I'm also concerned that Aira and Mina are not up to par with the rest of the COs, but I don't want to go back to their old skill sets. Edge looks promising, so much so that kiwi has professed to maining him. Nana, Robo-Andy, and Zandra look okay, so we'll have to see. Artemis is a loon; even with rain immunity, fog is fog, so I just did away with it entirely. He gets better boosts and a more standard bar but the rain hurts him just as much as his opponent, although he can use his powers after moving for a better view. I don't recall if rain hinders movement or not anymore. What I mean to say is people are gonna groan when they see the rain CO is back.

Tasha (DP) vs. Gage (kiwi), turn 14
230% attack stealths are very amusing. kiwi lamented not choosing Greyfield and being more careful with his spyplane defense network, so...

Tasha (DP) vs. Greyfield (kiwi), turn 13
I suppose, despite appearances, that this is a fast map. It's based on Marine Bridge but, because there are central properties, whoever expands the fastest and can hold onto that territory will be the winner. That goes for all maps of course, but Greyfield's stats just seem to mesh with this map. The original Marine Bridge wasn't much of a naval map, but then there aren't many good naval maps to begin with, and I wouldn't say this is a good navy map. Regardless, I'm thinking Greyfield is not so much a navy CO so much as he is a general CO with a navy slant, perfect for this map. Tasha is more or less a general CO with a perk for air units. Gage is decidedly an indirect and naval specialist. Greyfield's stats aren't as high as others, barring his navy during a super (130/150), but the fact that he has resupply means he can use stealths, subs, spyplanes, and probably megatanks without worrying about their ammo or fuel (two of my stealths ran out of fuel in the first game) and he needs one less property to buy ships; even though -1000 cost is worse than a percent discount due to ships being over 10000, it makes a noticeable impact.

As for the match itself, I'm guessing I would've faired better with power spam because Greyfield's own powers are much faster. That, and not getting hung up on the defensive like kiwi did in the first game.

I guess I should point out that the way Greyfield's discount works means you need to build your navy units before your funding drops past the point you can buy them normally, so if you have 10000 you can't buy a cruiser or destroyer even though that's how much they cost for Greyfield. Another thing is: suspension bridges are supposed to act like shoals that larger ships can traverse, but loading works too? Hovers can't move on or off them like shoals but you can load and unload units. Checking the normal release provides the same results. Is this another "feature," or were they always like that?

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:33 pm 
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I think it's a "feature". Not a whole lot of people actually played even back in the day so it doesn't surprise me at all that a lot of loony stuff has gone unnoticed.

But where IS the source code anyway? Aside from the unit veterancy, I could try my hands at extracting the CO code from BD and making the DoR COs actually work like DoR COs, with CO units, zones, weird charging and everything. I think this would be preferable to them just being another bunch of custom DS style CO's only using the DoR graphics for the portraits. We could also use the the mechanic for custom COs that combine the DS and DoR style play in different ways to provide variety - and justification for their existence, which would bring hope to some of the old discarded characters who were just a little bit too similar to someone else.

Kosheh btw, could you give us a helping hand and collect the DoR sprites and put them on sheets that can be read by Crap Wars (so that the co selection screen shows their faces rather than their feet) ? Another thing you could do would be taking the highres artwork of the DS COs and the CCOs that have it and scaling them down so they could be used as ingame CO graphics. I think it would look a little bit better than the 4-bit sprites we currently use and we could make them actually the same scale with the DoR CO's.

BTW Joey was the guy who dropped an APC on every owned property. I think he did something else too, but the APC spamming was the main thing why he was considered hilariously broken. edit: oh yeah he was able to capture using infantry inside an APC.


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 5:23 am 
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Rachel (Narts) vs. Sami (DP), turn 14
Yeah, can we please bump stealth prices now? There's, like, three hidden and they'll sack my base next turn. Or make them like subs where you just need to find them before attacking.

I could've built a megatank, which would've held my base, but then what?

Now that I think about it, even if I'd used my own stealths, Covering Fire would've decimated them.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 8:42 am 
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looks more like you blew money trying to hold the ports

but yeah fine stealths to cost the same as bombers or something
other: +bcopter damage vs tanks, Kindle 115 atk


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:38 am 
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Thanks to Narts fixing the COList, we could finally see the new old COs in action.

They were pretty close but here's a few minute changes:

Nana
4/6
100/100, explosive indirects: 1 damage to adjacent tiles if indirects deal 1 or more damage
130/110, 1 damage to nearest, most expensive target following an attack using ammo
130/110, area of effect for explosion +1, applies to directs if they use ammo to attack
*reducing the power area effect causes the game to bug out

Artemis
3/6
100/100
130/110, rain
130/110, rain, enemy units lose 0.4 HP per space moved

Robo-Andy
3/6
110/100, 90/100 when 4 stars or more are charged
120/110, cannot use if 4 stars or more are charged
110/110, +1 HP after attack or counterattack, 2 damage enemy unit that destroys allied unit
*due to the coding, units are 100/100 at 3 stars

Aira
3/6
100/100
120/110, x5 enemy fuel use, disable enemy refuel
120/110, 2 damage enemy units less than 10000 in price

Edge
2/6
130/100 vs units that cost more than the attacker, 100/100
160/110 vs units that cost more than the attacker, 110/110
160/110 and first strike counters vs units that cost more than the attacker, 80% costs, 110/110
*Edge's bonus doesn't apply to infantry or mechs

Zandra
3/7
100/100
110/120, causes sandstorm, allied units have higher terrain bonus if there's a difference in battle
110/130, causes sandstorm, +30 defense if enemy unit must move to attack

Mina
3/6
100/100
110/120, -20 to enemy luck range
110/130, 20% of enemy's units take 4 damage starting from most expensive

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Quote:
Epoch
120/120 hide HP 1 star is like
what

so 110/110 hide HP
or 115/115


Amusingly enough 110/110 was his original stats but they sucked too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:25 pm 
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If this was with the DS or AW2 charge rates then yeah, probably. Everyone else's powers would outclass it with the 0.4 stars an infantry while it wouldn't be fast enough with 9000 per star. It may be that 110/110 is weak with 7000 anyway, but 120/120 is too much even for Crap Wars considering many other COs get 130/110 for 3 stars, not to mention one CO gets the same boost for 3 stars and another gets 120/110 for 2. Basically, the default +10/10 shouldn't be considered free, if I remember the change's justification.

11.05.09: Edge

Eagle (DP) vs. Edge (kiwi), turn 16
Edge is... usable, but more often than not he's still bland. His super is very nice, sure, but I'd like to avoid one-trick COs unless they have to forfeit their power. In theory, once it rolls around, you should use it to tech up and force your opponent to do the same, and then Edge's ability kicks in. However, being practically bland and having to wait for a 6 star super makes things quite rough, even when the opposing CO has a bug that applies the power cancellation's -1 move to newly built units. Odds are your opponent will have an advantage and won't have to worry about teching up. The number of bases on G'Morning didn't help either as Edge is effectively unable to take out Eagle's bomber with that number of infantry around.

On another note, megatank defense is still too high, at least for other tank matchups. Megatanks can easily perch themselves on mountains, and as nothing other than bombers deal more than 50% damage to them, terrain defense has a big impact. It's probably faulty logic to think that they need to be on par with battleships since they're the same cost; battleships have wildly different counters, not to mention their use is different and they got nerfed. 7 range might work in the normal game and AHC where they cost more than many maps' income, but not here.

Edge (kiwi) vs. Will (DP), turn 14
No doubt it's obvious quite a few COs get a little more than 130/110 for 3 stars, so if you're having trouble against Will, basically the bare minimum for usability, something isn't right. It may just be us after all, or Edge may still suck, or both. Regardless, sucking less is still sucking. His bonus remains situational, so he needs something not situational to give him something to work with.

3/6
100/100, 130/100 vs more expensive units
130/110
130/110, 80% costs, first strike counters vs more expensive units
infantry and mechs still excluded from attack bonus

At least the bonuses on the powers remain the same at 160 vs. more expensive units.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:28 am 
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Andy is bland with 6 star SCOP
but then it's a nice SCOP

MEGATANK HEADBUTT

tanks: 55, 45, 23, 17, 5
bcrafts: 85, 55, 45, 35, 30
mediums: 85, 85, 55, 45, 25
neotanks: 105, 105, 75, 55, 35
MEGATANKS: 115, 95, 65, 50, 40
list respectively

yeah overlooked bcraft damage to megas

tanks: 55, 45, 23, 17, 8
bcrafts: 85, 55, 45, 35, 30
mediums: 85, 85, 55, 45, 40
neotanks: 105, 105, 75, 55, 45
MEGATANKS: 115, 105, 65, 60, 50

???


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Andy's super revitalizes his army on the spot; Edge's helps deploy bigger reinforcements. It's not nearly as good as it is now without a helping hand of standardized firepower, and even then Hyper Upgrade may be better unless you have the good fortune to destroy most of Andy's damaged units. Then again, Andy is completely and utterly bland while Edge affects some important matchups, like most attacks made on battleships and bombers.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:36 am 
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kiwi wrote:
Andy is bland with 6 star SCOP
I rescind this statement
Andy's had 130 atk on both COPs all this time
cool


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:23 pm 
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15.05.09: various

Zandra (DP) vs. Penny (kiwi), turn 12
Zandra makes a better anti-indirect CO than Javier, I'd think. 2 Penny powers to 1 Zandra super is basically nothing; Penny kinda just bounces off of Zandra's defense. Being bland and saving up for a 7 star super is a risky proposition otherwise though, because no other CO goes with just a weakness for a day to day as Penny does, but Desert Gale seems to be fairly decisive.

Gage (kiwi) vs. Zandra (DP), turn 15
This map basically boils down to setting up a battleship barrage before the other player. Gage has a big advantage here, what with 110/110 naval units, especially since Zandra gets no firepower bonus to speak of. On the other hand, Gage's indirects and navy are the only things that get boosted, everything else only gets the defaults. Even so, while Zandra is good against indirects, COs that boost their range can keep attacking at Zandra's 130 defense, since the super's 160 only kicks in when the unit must move to attack.

kiwi decided to build only 2 landers to capture some platforms, so I had 30-odd properties to his 24. Unfortunately, we didn't get to finish this match. It probably would've gone on for some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Internet connection has been crap lately, and things are just generally hectic around here, so instead of an update or precision ramblings you get vague filler in wall of text form.

When in doubt, use Andy, seriously. He's better than Brenner since it's better to be on the attack than defense although that's not to say Brenner doesn't have his uses. 130% attack with 2 healing is probably a bit much for 3 stars but he is completely bland; if we had tiers he'd probably be on the high end. My bigger concern is that he's far and away a better choice than Jake, Javier, Will, and some others, maybe even Olaf. I've never been sure of healing effects though, but it appears to me as better than resupply or another turn of increased firepower.

Sophie's change to 150% defense on attacks over 120% makes a marked difference. Even so, I wouldn't call her one of the best COs, especially since this doesn't apply to indirects, but if there's one CO kiwi and I both like using, it's Sophie. She doesn't rely on outgunning the opponent, it really seems like her troops are just plain better so long as they get the first shot. Her super may need closer examination, however. I believe the double attacks are at 95% and 85% strength; I'm not sure why they aren't just both 90% attack.

Like Edge, Artemis is much improved over his old bland 4/5 self. He may be too much improved, however, but I'm not sure what could be done about it other than removing the firepower bonus. It remains to be seen whether causing rain with just defaults can stand at 2 stars or if it's still too powerful. The super's damage definitely needs to be toned down, however. At 0.4 damage a space, moving 5 spaces deals 2 damage, and many units move more than that. 0.25 damage is a possibility. The main thing is that no CO should be able to get flat 2 mass damage for less than 7 stars, but Arty's super is currently that, more or less.

I'm not sure what to do about Aira. Really, the only thing going for her is her super which is very close to 2 MD for 6 stars, at least closer than Peter assuming you haven't chosen her for a naval map which is generally a bad idea. Giving her more standardized firepower seems crude.

Edge is significantly improved but I'm not sure I'd use him over Andy. He does have the honor of being one of two COs to have 130% offense day to day, however, with the other having a huge weaknesses. Edge's weakness is that his infantry are bland, apparently. Edge's army composition will generally use middle units like anti-airs and hovers, but like Max his mighty attack won't make up for striking second or poor playing in general, and it won't come in much at all if his opponent doesn't need to tech up.

Ember is better than Olaf and many others. Unlike the old guys, she has a fairly significant day to day which is compounded by her super's damage which means instead of two turns of increased attack, it's basically indefinite until the opponent makes repairs or loses those units. I'm thinking 110% attack against units with 9 or less HP would be enough.

Walter is surprisingly powerful. For 3 stars, any attacks the opponent makes deals about a third of that damage to the offending unit. I was thinking swapping the powers would be enough but I don't think anyone wants set ammo to 0 as a 3 star power. Then again, Crap Wars APCs cost a mite 2500. We may just swap his powers and give him a 3/5 bar after all.

I haven't seen enough of Edward to say much about him. I will say that kiwi was mistaken and he only saps 10% of the enemy funding after using his power; the test map has 3 armies, so someone failed a math check. The prospect of using him in a massive free for all may be amusing though, but we need to find some way to prevent the building of infantry during his super. No amount of price inflation will offset this, although it does prevent the appearance of other units aside from that blob of infantry.

Waylon is a force to be reckoned with. He has the highest constant defense day to day at 120%. If there were pure air maps, he would likely dominate them. Many air match-ups sit at or around 105% and facing them in the skies where the match-ups are more like 55% just leaves them with that much more HP. Possible options are reducing the day to day to 115% and standardizing the general super bonus to 110/130, like the other defense COs.

I must admit, standardizing the various CO abilities overall is rather simplistic. However, I don't know how else to "balance" the roster. Many players seem to scoff at having so many characters in a competitive setting, but I never understood this rationale as the quantity is irrelevant if the quality lies in a select few. If the characters are less distinctive, insomuch as they offered similar beenfits as each other, it'd probably easier to bring them in line of each other. Likewise, I tend not to think of them as characters first and more as stats and their ensuing functionality, but I seem to be alone in that mindset.

Deoxy once said something to the effect that making everyone broken would fix things as far as balance was concerned. In short, we seem to be taking a few steps in that direction. Let's hope she's right.

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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
Many players seem to scoff at having so many characters in a competitive setting, but I never understood this rationale as the quantity is irrelevant if the quality lies in a select few. If the characters are less distinctive, insomuch as they offered similar beenfits as each other, it'd probably easier to bring them in line of each other.
I would say it's not so much about balance, but rather about it being rather pointless. What do you gain from having a large cast of characters if they're all practically the same? You're only giving headaches to people who are struggling to remember what everyone in your game does. A lot of strategy gamers are memorisation freaks to whom it is absolutely critical to know everything about the workings of a game or they feel they can't be competitive and they will hate you. Personally I don't care that much but I would prefer a DoR style minimalistic cast because it's simple. Simple is beautiful.

Quote:
Deoxy once said something to the effect that making everyone broken would fix things as far as balance was concerned. In short, we seem to be taking a few steps in that direction. Let's hope she's right.
If there is anything I learned from Serpentor Tournament it's that "unstoppable force versus the unmovable obstacle" doesn't result in particularly fun gameplay. This would be the prime reason why we don't want CO's to be too strong. Advance Wars should be primarily about the units and how you use them, with the COs only providing flavour instead of dominating the gameplay.


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 Post subject: Re: Crap Wars Balance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:49 am 
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Crap Wars as it is is pretty pointless, being a giant dogpile of AW things, rendering them variously unrecognizable in its conglomerate blobiness.

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