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 Post subject: CW
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:32 pm 
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What is Custom Wars's history? I don't mean a timeline, those are cute and all but, I mean, why did it go about the way it has? Looking through AWN and AWBW, it seems like people are just butthurt over not getting their content in, or have been driven away by the opposite: horror stories about a draconian judging system, or a combination of the two or, worst, have no idea what it's about. This applies to CW itself too, of course, and somehow I don't think there was ever a real consensus or agreement on where the project was headed or what it's goal was.

When I see independent projects, or any production, really, they just sorta... happen. If there's feedback, it's generally limited or comes after the fact that the production is complete. If the feedback is considered at all, it gets used for future projects or installations of the earlier one. I guess what I think I saw here is: trying to appease and appeal to the audience while the project was in development bogged it down to the point that it stopped.

Is that just it? Broken feelings? Feedback error?

I joined the AW community rather recently as I understand it, kiwi even later, and I only vaguely know about the RWD incident which I suppose kicked the whole thing off to a bad start. kiwi doesn't know more... or care, for that matter. Where else am I supposed to look? WWN is rather apathetic about the whole thing, which is probably better than nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Oh, I do know quite a bit about the story... from the programmers POV. TBH, the following just about sums up what happened in a nutshell...

DiamondPheonix wrote:
I guess what I think I saw here is: trying to appease and appeal to the audience while the project was in development bogged it down to the point that it stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Have you ever programmed, let a lone in a shitty code like java? Combine its lameness with the custom content of 500 members (yes, 500 members at the peak). Add in 3 or 4 programmers. Throw in technical errors that cause java to stop. Also throw in, only like 15 members of the 500 ever played.

Long story short, we bent over a desk, pulled our pants down, and let democracy gang rape us 500 people is a row. We can't program every little whim of a thousand idiot people (reference shinkon for what idiot people are like). Our programmers burnt out, we put limits on custom content, people left, that was that. For some god fucking forsaken reason our bloody team was so caught up about what people thought they failed to realise no one was playing it in development, so why go off the fucking path to bend over to people's will.

You know, in one month I programmed an A.I. that could play aw style games based of a code I found in one of my highschool texts for flash. Ya flash wouldve solved some issues but then there would be a whole nother fucking ballgame.

So there you have abridged version. Yes there is a lot of butthurt, (reference imagery of getting ass raped by 500 idiot people).

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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Now that you mention it, I have no hope for this bloody program anymore D:. Same shit, new managment. I was actually hoping for progress that I could help with but I couldn't care anymore. Also my birthday is coming up yay D: that will be how many years wasted here D:?

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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Artea wrote:
Have you ever programmed, let a lone in a shitty code like java? Combine its lameness with the custom content of 500 members (yes, 500 members at the peak). Add in 3 or 4 programmers. Throw in technical errors that cause java to stop. Also throw in, only like 15 members of the 500 ever played. Skipped bending over part...

It's unfair to blame java, it doesn't generate shitty code and why would you think it is 'lame'. 'Technical errors' are that bugs? .. they happen on every program and can be caused by all kind of things like Wrong use of the api, no input validation(like y nobody will ever add -99 to a unit hp) wrong expectations(like y nobody will pass a null where a string is expected) spamming objects in the painting method... also cw1 was structural and gui oriented which made it harder to reflect to changes.

I don't think it's the same shit because the new shit has a plan. that will handle the 500 members/custom content.
There is like a huge todo list, have you clicked on the webstart link? or is cw2 already doomed to fail before you looked at it. I think it rules :D and don't be fooled by the ugly graphics as that really is not my cup of tea(and can be changed by plugins) It's the backing code that is well thought of and robust. How can I convince you that it is an improvement?


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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:51 am 
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I didn't make this topic to bellyache, that's pretty much what killed support for the old project. If it's going to move forward again, we need to look out for the things that didn't work and handle them differently.

stef is the lead coder now, he calls the shots. The rest of us should be so lucky he's open to input.

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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:12 am 
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But DP.... that is the point.

The whole point was to make the programmers more accessible to the community. I am hoping that the community will, in turn, warm up to us so we can get the inspiration needed to finish this game off.

I joined this community at the time where the custom content was looked down upon and scorned. It was really discouraging because Custom Wars really meant something awesome, but lacked the means to deliver on that promise. It wasn't too soon til the rest of the community noticed...

It is very important to us that we get it right this time. It hope it's important to the community that we get it right as well. This is why we encourage you to speak up if you hate something or want something added. That is the main reason I started that Programmers Questionnaire... The moment you feel this isn't going the way you think it should, speak out and we'll listen to your claims and ideas.

This place isn't mine, stef's, or yours... it is our place. We are here cause we all want the same thing essentially... so let's use the skills we have to get it done. As long as you have the power to post, make those posts count.

-JSR


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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:09 pm 
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I'm under the impression from here and elsewhere that people hated the custom aspect because its implementation was poorly handled which also bred self-righteous pangs of how unbalanced user-generated content would be. The power to actually allow things into the game rested with a few arbitrarily chosen members of the community, some more qualified for the position than others, and I don't recall the devs having much more of a say than "this won't work, we can't do this." Why would anyone want to work on a project like that?

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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:43 pm 
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DiamondPheonix wrote:
...I don't recall the devs having much more of a say than "this won't work, we can't do this." Why would anyone want to work on a project like that?


Well, the thing is... broken ideas die quickly. Popular ideas are the main stream of success. If people like an idea, they gravitate toward it. Like the idea of a completely balanced AW for example. Sirlin gave me a lot of inspiration while thinking about a good way to write this program.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html

We are making a editable game. It totally sidetracks this dream of writing a balanced AW as everyone wants to experiment at once. We will have people trying out all sort of experiments, but the core AW data has to be accessible first. After a while, people will start gravitating toward a creating a balanced game.

But, to answer your question, the reason I want to work on this project is simple. We need to experiment.

We all have a vision of how a balanced AW would look like. We all think we can do better than the broken trio and useless units of the past AW games. AW pulls so many similarities to chess, it isn't funny.. (and yet, chess is a very popular and well made game; even with the massive FTA issues.) Making a well-made game is very difficult. But despite its problems, I think many people would say AW is a well-made game.

The bigger question in everyone's minds is if a "balanced AW" is possible. However, to answer this question, we need a base. Even if we don't find the answer to the perfect AW, at least we'll be able to keep trying. That is the point of this program. The final point of this engine.

-JSR


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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:44 pm 
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DiamondPheonix wrote:
What is Custom Wars's history? I don't mean a timeline, those are cute and all but, I mean, why did it go about the way it has? Looking through AWN and AWBW, it seems like people are just butthurt over not getting their content in, or have been driven away by the opposite: horror stories about a draconian judging system, or a combination of the two or, worst, have no idea what it's about. This applies to CW itself too, of course, and somehow I don't think there was ever a real consensus or agreement on where the project was headed or what it's goal was.


The goal was to be a legitimate competitor to AWBW. Custom Content was always the ideal for the longest time, WWN ran entire rating systems and halls of fame, and people actually put up with and enjoyed the theoretical banter and ratings. Custom Wars unfortunately raised the bar quite a bit - giving way to the absolutely draconian judging system.

Quote:
When I see independent projects, or any production, really, they just sorta... happen. If there's feedback, it's generally limited or comes after the fact that the production is complete. If the feedback is considered at all, it gets used for future projects or installations of the earlier one. I guess what I think I saw here is: trying to appease and appeal to the audience while the project was in development bogged it down to the point that it stopped.


A few people in charge... so to speak, made ideas and gave them to programmers, who implemented them. We had to keep the illusion up that everyone could participate... otherwise we had nothing compared to AWBW.

Quote:
Is that just it? Broken feelings? Feedback error?

I joined the AW community rather recently as I understand it, kiwi even later, and I only vaguely know about the RWD incident which I suppose kicked the whole thing off to a bad start. kiwi doesn't know more... or care, for that matter. Where else am I supposed to look? WWN is rather apathetic about the whole thing, which is probably better than nothing.


RWD collapses the crap, we all went nuts and wanted 100% accountability from our programmers, we really believed they were quite minor in the grand scheme of things, it would be the content and our glorious community that drove us forward. Entitlement culture, blah blah etc. We honestly thought that AI and custom campaigns were achievable by a single person with RWD - he took it all away and we all just sort of... fell, expecting that ideal that we'd never return to.


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 Post subject: Re: CW
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:50 pm 
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DiamondPheonix wrote:
I'm under the impression from here and elsewhere that people hated the custom aspect because its implementation was poorly handled which also bred self-righteous pangs of how unbalanced user-generated content would be. The power to actually allow things into the game rested with a few arbitrarily chosen members of the community, some more qualified for the position than others, and I don't recall the devs having much more of a say than "this won't work, we can't do this." Why would anyone want to work on a project like that?


AW was a lot more popular and the general idea of custom content was seen as the place for most people to channel their passion for the game into. Content-wise you see why people wanted to contribute - it was basically the ideal and held up pretty highly in AW culture.

As for programming, no fucking clue, I think uru knew he basically could do whatever the fuck he wanted if it really came down to it. I'm guessing he just genuinely wanted to make an AW engine. Really it wasn't that new of an idea, there had been several people who attempted it before... he just promised custom stuff as well. :/


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