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 Post subject: Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:18 am 
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I'm just amazed, that with all the proof against evolution, that it's still around.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:45 pm 
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"god's in his "heaven" all right with the world of man"

I don't beleive in god, many arguments against it that are much more substantially beleivable than the arguments against evolution.

Try not to bait flamers.
[/discussion]


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:09 am 
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God can't be proven but evolution can be disproven. Like for example Darwin, over 100 years ago, said that the number of intermediate species must be enormous, and that if more were not found, in archeology in the future that anyone could disbelieve evolution solly on that basis.

What is a flamer?
[discussion]

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Misquote actually,
Darwin stated the only way to argue against him would be to have more complete collection of fossils that don't have intemediate steps. In other words, to prove him wrong, between his era and our era we would have to find less (or none at all) of the "missing link" fossils we have been digging up since his time. Yet since his time fossil records and studies have greatly expanded exponentially.

So solly on the terms you used Darwin isn't wrong. Of course studying biochem with a subspecialisation in genetics could bring more to argue in evolutions favor.

[Offtopic]
Bringing anything like religion, beleifs, and other hot topics tends to bring people that have different views together. Many people will tend to devolve on the internet (no witty comment intended) to hostile interaction on such topics. You being an obvious jesus fish suporter (the sig, banner, and argument torwards a well accepted theory), many non beleivers can just as easily come in here and derail the topic by insulting your religion while not contributing to it.

[/discussion]


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:10 am 
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Sorry for the misquote. This is what I meant to quote

Darwin in Of Pandas and People

"...[T]he intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth,[must] be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology surely does not reveal any such finely graded organic child, And this, is perhaps the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

From Charles Darwin's "Origen of Species"

" the geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest gradual steps. He who rejects these views [evolutionary theory] on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory."

Dr. David Rerlinski said that the number of steps between a water dweller and a land dweller is some around 50,000 steps [that is individual mutations through time].

Mind you that 50,000 is the number of mutations not the number of generations. Each mutation would take a long time to happen anyways. We have been observing species for mutations for the last 150 years and have found no beneficial mutations.

What if I may ask are the intermediate fossils that have been found? BTW please don't only use ape to man.

Biochemistry, do you mean the finches? Because they birthed ones with thinner beaks after it started raining again.

[Offtopic]
exponentially means: by exponents as in squared and cubed ect so if one (archaeopteryx) was found during Darwin's time then 12=1, 130= 1.
[/Offtopic]
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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:59 am 
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You should seriously read these:
http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... anual.html
http://www.religionisbullshit.net/articles.php

These have been quite enlightening.

Also, because evolution can't be proven perfectly, doesn't mean it's not there. It's the same argument you use against people who dare say that your God doesn't exist. If you knew anything about science, you'd know you can perfectly prove something. Everything is an approximation of the truth. (You can only have so many numbers after a dot, you can never be perfecly exact and on-target.) Evolution is there, it happened, but there's no perfect proof for it.

Plus, who knows, maybe aliens came to Earth and modified creatures and who knows what else. You don't have any proof of that, but nothing against it either...You can't just assume evolution never could've happened.

You imagine something has a reason to be there, FOR A GOAL. No, science says that everything has a reason to be there, but "the reason to be there", is a causation. You could say we are here because of evolution. Evolution is the reason we are here. We are not here to do something for God or who knows what else. If we were here to do something for a God, why didn't this God do it himself with his "magical powers"? Why would he need us? We are imperfect, we do not obey, we are mentally free (in a limited way, we still have instincts/emotions). We are only beautiful because it is normal for a human to find another beautiful. I won't go deeper, but that's pretty much it.

EDIT: On fossils. Sorry, I had to tackle this one. We only find intermediary fossils, because we barely found any fossils. There are tons of inter-intermediary fossils that have yet to be found. And it might be that we found apparently 2 same fossils, but actually, didn't quite think up that possibly, one of the two fossils belongs to an evolved version of the animal that the other fossil is.

Say, if the only difference between 2 creatures was that one evolved to use hair, and the other didn't have any...And all that each of the creatures left behind was a fossil, you wouldn't notice the difference between each of the two fossils, because all you see are the once-were bones of the animals that decayed and turned into minerals shaped as the bones of the original animal. There is nearly no DNA left, and you only see the bones, so you can't be sure if both fossils didn't actually belong to different evolutions of the same animal (IE one had thicker, fatter skin and no hair, while the other one had thinner, stronger skin and had hair).

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:38 am 
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This is a flaw i find in evolution. no matter how far you go back there is matter. which means that matter is eternal no actions matter. all returns to a black hole and it then blows up and starts over. Why does the black hole blow up?

For evolutioist what is the judge for ethics? if i am related to a deadly disease then what right have i to kill it? and if i may kill it what difference is there between it and a human?

look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rugGS4B5Gs This is an evolution , sientist Dr. William Brovine.

Quote:
If we were here to do something for a God, why didn't this God do it himself with his "magical powers"? Why would he need us? We are imperfect, we do not obey, we are mentally free (in a limited way, we still have instincts/emotions).


You are right He dosn't need us but he still wants us. He lets us have the job to so we could have a sence of acompleshment.

We are imperfect because we choose to not obey. we can choose to disobay be cause we have free will (Mentally free). Humans were perfect once but Adam and Evegave that up. [this paragraph is vary simplefied.]

Quote:
We are only beautiful because it is normal for a human to find another beautiful. I won't go deeper, but that's pretty much it.


Christians belief is we are beautiful (inside) because we are made in God's image. out side apearance is unimportant because our souls are all that matter.

What is truth?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Quote:
@ CoSonic
Once again,
He is not to be persuaded no matter what you say making, it a one sided discussion.
Also in a proper discussion it is essential to be as clear as possible and to use the proper citations and contexts. Also equally important is proper spelling and grammar



Quote:
@ Simon "bible boy"
As for the black hole exploding, go take a 5th year advanced quantum mechanics courses that are looking/dealing with the whole grand unification theory.

Ethics falls under philosophy not evolution. Your arguments can be partially answered in external world philosophy and any number of human ethics classess.

Youtube link, its youtube, its a no name scientist no offense, and his arguments are not the views of ALL modern evolutionists. No free will, I can walk over to your house and give you a purple nurple; is that not free will? I can impose changes on the enviroment; again is that not free will? Freedom of thought?

As you probably realize, I am not religious. However I am tolerant and don't mind others to share their beleifs with me from time to time. What I DO NOT TOLERATE is when said people come and try to force their ideas on me either. I give you applause for going against mainstream thinking but your arguments are quite lacking none the less. I won't force evolution upon you but I will defend it.


@COsonic
We do find fossils with hair and feathers on them, but the conditions which are neccessary for these to form are astronomically rare. On the other hand I wonder how many are destroyed by quarries around the world, I do know of a few examples first hand of rare fossils being destroyed in cement quarries.

@Everyone:
You guys make it sound like evolution is a forced function, like something activly "evolves" truth of the matter is its a slow process. Yes there will be exponential numbers in variations in the gene stock from sample to sample within a species, within a genus, etc. etc. What you guys are forgetting is that the ones with the best traits TEND to survive longer meaning the most common of a said species is predominantly composed of survivers. This tends to mean the few mutants we do have die out while there are few around, so finding a fossil of a "dead" branch is rare.

I would continue arguing this but it would appear no one here is formally trained in evolution theories beyond the high school grade. Once again I can bring it in to a more complex level but I am afraid jesus boy will just preach his bible stuff while reading random sites he googled to argue any points i do bring up :3.

Take care and enjoy making custom wars <3


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:33 pm 
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You want someone that knows a bit about theology?

Ok, where to start?

a) To prove something scientifically, you must be able to recreate it in a lab. Since history cannot be recreated, history cannot be scientifically proven. The entire debate about how humanity came into existence is all based around what evidence we can come up with (scientific observations, archeology, ancient records) and the theories surrounding them. Therefore, the best you can do is attempt to disprove something, but even that is extremely hard to do.

b) A lot of people misread the Bible. There are vast sections of it that are meant to be history, but there is also a lot of it that is meant to be poetry. Even though it's been translated, Genesis 1 is still very clearly a poetic section. There is repetition, motifs, and a certain rhythm to it. A lot of people attempt to take that as a historical record. All that it claims in Genesis 1 is that God did it and it was good. It uses the phrase "day", but you again have to remember that this is a translation. A day as we know it didn't even exist for the first few "days" of the creation story. There was no sun and moon at that point. Instead, "day" is used as a literary device to mean "period of time". Theoretically, God could have just spoken and everything poofed into existence. Or He could have used evolution. Or He could have waddled around, quacking like the ducks that He had not yet created while everything formed around Him. No one knows, and frankly, I don't care. This happened a long time ago, and it doesn't affect how I live my life today. Yes, I believe that God created the world. Do I care how He did it? Nope. Why should I?

c) God desires community. He is three persons in one by His very nature (research the trinity, if you don't know what I mean). He created humans for community. He created Adam and said, "It is not good for man to be alone." This was the first time God said something was not good. So, He created community amongst the humans. But He also desires community with us. Read the story of the fall closely. God is an all know, omnipotent being that just finished creating everything in existence. Yet it says that He was walking through the garden, like He did daily, in order to have community with His creation. The entire Bible is the grand story of God trying to have community with humans. That's what Christianity is all about. A lot of people get bogged down in rules, regulations, and legalism, but that's not what the Bible describes. Read the accounts of Jesus sometime. He consistently argued with the people trying to make everyone live by a long list of restrictions (the Pharisees), but when it came to the everyday, normal people, He hung out with them as friends. So, God does have a plan for each person's life. But that plan centers around that person being in community with Him. One of my favorite quotes that sums this up what Christianity is about. "Love God, then do whatever you want."

d) Free will. If we were forced to love God, it wouldn't be true love. He gave us free will so that we could decide for ourselves.

Eh, it's late and I'm tired. If there's anything major I missed, I'll catch it next time...

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Whoa... QFT! Well said, Thrawn... :gesalute:


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:53 pm 
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ThrawnFett wrote:
c) God desires community. He is three persons in one by His very nature (research the trinity, if you don't know what I mean). He created humans for community. He created Adam and said, "It is not good for man to be alone." This was the first time God said something was not good. So, He created community amongst the humans. But He also desires community with us. Read the story of the fall closely. God is an all know, omnipotent being that just finished creating everything in existence. Yet it says that He was walking through the garden, like He did daily, in order to have community with His creation. The entire Bible is the grand story of God trying to have community with humans. That's what Christianity is all about. A lot of people get bogged down in rules, regulations, and legalism, but that's not what the Bible describes. Read the accounts of Jesus sometime. He consistently argued with the people trying to make everyone live by a long list of restrictions (the Pharisees), but when it came to the everyday, normal people, He hung out with them as friends. So, God does have a plan for each person's life. But that plan centers around that person being in community with Him. One of my favorite quotes that sums this up what Christianity is about. "Love God, then do whatever you want."


this is the only point I disagree with, "Love God, then do whatever you want." Romans 6:1 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" The Corinthians overused God's grace by telling people. No matter what you do, God will forgive you.

I doubt you meant "Love God, Then sin your heart out." But you need to be aware of the ramafications of what you say.

destin wrote:
Ethics falls under philosophy not evolution. Your arguments can be partially answered in external world philosophy and any number of human ethics classess.

I ask where do ethics come from not where are they taught. As far as I can tell the only evolutionary ethics is syrvival of the fittest.
destin wrote:
Youtube link, its youtube, its a no name scientist no offense, and his arguments are not the views of ALL modern evolutionists.

Dr. William Brovine was speaking at Oxford when that vidio was shot, so i doubt he was, in the 80's, a no name scientist.

destin wrote:
As you probably realize, I am not religious. However I am tolerant and don't mind others to share their beleifs with me from time to time. What I DO NOT TOLERATE is when said people come and try to force their ideas on me either. I give you applause for going against mainstream thinking but your arguments are quite lacking none the less. I won't force evolution upon you but I will defend it.

I have heard "when people force their beliefs on me." but I have never truly understood what they meant. Can you tell me what you mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:11 am 
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You wanna use Romans?

Romans 8:5 wrote:
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.


I knew exactly what I was saying and all the ramifications of it. If you truly love God, then you realize that His plan and desires for your life are the best way to live. The closer you grow to Him, the more you desire the same things that He does. Love God, and do whatever you want. When you love God, you become a new person, and that new person's desires become God's desires, so what you want to do becomes what God wants you to do. Romans 12: Do not conform to the ways of the world, but instead be transformed by the renewing of your mind. This is your spiritual act of worship.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:13 am 
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You are right. I remembered Jesus saying "If you love Me you will keep My commandments" right after I turned off my computer.

there is a problem i found in you logic:

ThrawnFett wrote:
b) A lot of people misread the Bible. There are vast sections of it that are meant to be history, but there is also a lot of it that is meant to be poetry. Even though it's been translated, Genesis 1 is still very clearly a poetic section. There is repetition, motifs, and a certain rhythm to it. A lot of people attempt to take that as a historical record. All that it claims in Genesis 1 is that God did it and it was good. It uses the phrase "day", but you again have to remember that this is a translation. A day as we know it didn't even exist for the first few "days" of the creation story. There was no sun and moon at that point. Instead, "day" is used as a literary device to mean "period of time".


but on day one(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genisis%201:1-3&version=NIV) God made light and separated it from darkness.
therefore day is a valad measurement.

Now I can not even pretend to know you story (life) of howlong you have held the beliefs you have. but every Chistian must remember Colosians 2:8 it says
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:09 pm 
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You assume that all light comes from the sun. A day was defined in those days (and up until very recently) by the movement of the sun and the moon. We know now that it's actually the earth orbiting, obviously. The Bible says here that the sun and the moon weren't created until the fourth day.

And I am a little curious as to why you attacked my very beliefs over this minor topic. Yes, you know nothing of my story. But you do know that I am a rational human being and you are apparently impressed by my deduction abilities since you sigged part of my guide for CCO raters. Does God say to love everybody, even if you disagree with them? Again, this is a very minor issue. How the world came into existence does not affect how I live my life. My relationship with God does. That is what matters. I don't know your story, but you appear to have your priorities out of whack. Even the first post of this topic shows that. You basically called everyone that believes in evolution an idiot for believing in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Regretably, religion doesn't hold any sway in the debate wether evolution can be proved or disproven. Your saying since we can't prove it, it MUST be god.

ThrawnFett wrote:
You want someone that knows a bit about theology?
a) To prove something scientifically, you must be able to recreate it in a lab. Since history cannot be recreated, history cannot be scientifically proven. The entire debate about how humanity came into existence is all based around what evidence we can come up with (scientific observations, archeology, ancient records) and the theories surrounding them. Therefore, the best you can do is attempt to disprove something, but even that is extremely hard to do.

@thrawn
(someone with brains in this discussion <3)
From my studies at university the best we can do to somewhat prove evoultion: to introduce mutations into short life cycle creatures and allow the colony to continue "x" timeframe. During that time we might see the mutation evolve into stronger or weaker strands and thus have outcomes that are visible to said mutations. Some of these mutations will allow simple changes such as colors to appearance, to wildly different permutations of the creature.

There also the fossil records etc.

@bible camp
Through anthropology we can learn about such things as culture, and pretty much everything we know based around scientific observations, archeology, ancient records, and of course a in depth look into our own culture. Our ethics, our laws, our very meaning of life is all a result of our intellect, our past, our enviroments. There is no "one answer fits all" explinations, rather combinations of everything. If anything, religion is the root cause of evolution concerning weapons advancements and many other scientific breakthroughs.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:56 pm 
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are we actually being successfully trolled by this

this is saddening


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:34 am 
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Brains? You better not be a zombie trying to eat them. I have a baseball bat and I know how to use it...

Anyway... in my opinion: Belief in God does not prove or disprove evolution. Belief in evolution does not prove or disprove God.

Also please note that some evolution can be proven. I forgot to mention that in my other post. Microevolution has been observed and recorded many, many times. The part that can't be proven is how microevolution makes the jump to another species, and thus to macroevolution.

And even if you can prove that macroevolution will allow jumps between species, you still can't prove the historical side of it. It's possible that evolution was the reason behind everything, but just because something exists does not mean that there is an automatic correlation between the two. In fact, assumed correlation is possibly one of the biggest errors a scientist could make. Take any basic science class with a lab and you know that you can't just state "the ball X rolls faster than ball Y down the ramp", but you have to back it up by the data of the experiments and look for every possible explanation for the difference. It's easier to assume that X has more mass than Y, but it could also be imprecision of releasing the balls, wind/ air flow in the room, etc. And again, because "the beginning of time" was a historical event and not a scientific experiment, there is no way to prove what actually happened. Hence my view of apathy about those events. I believe that God did it and how He did it is unimportant. Debates about evolution, etc only cause divisions between people.

Is there a way to scientifically prove God? Nope. In fact, if God could be scientifically proven, why would I want to follow Him? I don't want to follow a God who is limited by my imagination. That'd be a pretty weak God. Through my personal observations and experiences, I've seen enough to convince me that there is a God and that this God loves me and wants to have a relationship with me. There are certain things which are more important than science, in my opinion. Not to downplay science, God created an order in this world and gave humans the desire to figure it out, but again, I don't want to be able to completely figure out God.

And Sven: your mom is being trolled by this...

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